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Phraseology Request

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andrewatc View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 Nov 2017 at 3:40pm
One thing I hear a lot when listing to liveatc.net for some major US airports is the phrase "turn left heading 190 join the runway 16C final" and then following shortly after something along the lines of "4 miles from xxx, cross xxx 4000 or above cleared ILS runway 16C"

Would be nice to have this implemented in ATCpro. Currently when you give a distance to a fix it is not recognized by the SR, and giving a vector onto a Loc doesn't work either - the aircraft don't fly the heading as assigned (I've brought this up many times but to no avail).

I think it would be great to have more than one way to issue an ILS approach.

SW3, SW4 Captain in CYYC
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mlovetto View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlovetto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2017 at 8:59pm
I've given: "Fly heading 050 join the runway 8 localizer"  then later: "You are 5 miles from the final approach fix, maintain 8000 until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 8 approach" a bunch of times. Works fine for me
Michael Lovetto - FAA CPL; CFI; CFII
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andrewatc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andrewatc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2017 at 10:37pm
Have you actually had success with them flying the assigned heading? They will never fly the heading i say, and always turn in to have less of an intercept angle.

And when you say "from the final approach fix" are you actually saying those words? Any time I give a distance from a fix and use the fix name a bunch of gibberish appears on the text box. Do they hold the altitude as assigned as well?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlovetto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 2017 at 3:15pm
Yes. They typically maintain that heading until established and “from the final approach fix” is what I use and it works.
Michael Lovetto - FAA CPL; CFI; CFII
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ttjager View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttjager Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2017 at 2:01pm
Andrew:

When I've watched all your videos.  Thanks for sharing them!  I'e noticed you frequently give a command similar to, "DELTA 123, turn right heading 230, cleared for the ILS runway 26 right."  I think the issue is giving the approach clearance in the same command.  As soon as the AI pilot get the approach clearance, they seem to do their own thing and join the localizer as they are programmed to.

I use the following, "DELTA 123, turn right heading 230, join the localizer runway 26 right."  This works flawlessly every time.  After the aircraft is established on or near the intercept heading or has even joined the localizer, I will issue this: "DELTA 123, is 4 miles from BAMBU, maintain 4000 until established on final, cleared ILS runway 26 right."  That works almost all the time (90%+). 

It's interesting.  If you look at the comm window, the VR will frequently get things wrong in the lead-up to "cleared ILS runway 26 right"; however, as soon as the AI pilot gets that clearance, they ignore everything else said and fly the approach.  They simply reply, "cleared for the approach, DELTA 123."  It's not "right" but it works almost perfectly in the sim.

This also seems to work well regarding the altitude.  Most of the time, I will see an aircraft level off at their altitude until they join the glideslope.  The mode-C readout is very close to the crossing altitudes for each fix on the real approach plates.  The only time this could pose a bit of a problem in the sim is if you were using vertical separation from an adjacent localizer and really needed the aircraft to descend now.  I haven't had too much trouble with this situation.  This biggest issue I had is ending up with someone on a 17 mile final at 4000 feet.  Maybe I had a spacing issue and had to extend someone on downwind longer than usual.  If you give that guy an approach clearance, he might actually climb to join the glideslope.  Not cool at all.  With those guys, I just hold off on the issue the approach clearance unit they nearing glideslope altitude for that portion of the approach.  It's not perfect.

Lastly, and maybe a bit off topic, if you are vectoring an aircraft for an ILS approach, you need to get that aircraft BELOW the glideslope prior to issuing them an approach clearance.  Pilots are taught to never intercept a glideslope from above.  If you had an aircraft on the localizer, above the glideslope, you would need to "step them down" with an altitude command (like a localizer approach) and get them below the glideslope prior to issuing the approach clearance.  Having the actual approach plate handing is critical unless you have all the crossing fix altitudes memorized.  I'm going to make a video on this in the near future.

Have fun folks!

TJ


Edited by ttjager - 04 Dec 2017 at 2:06pm
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andrewatc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andrewatc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2017 at 4:49pm
Thanks TJ,

I have tried it a million different ways and I still can't get the aircraft to fly the assigned heading to intercept a locilizor. I will post a video of me doing this to the fourum in hopes that someone can point out what I'm doing wrong. I would love to see a video of yours so I can asses what you're doing. For me it simply does not work.

Regarding giving distances from a fix, As mlovetto said, actually saying the works "final approach fix" works. The SR recognizes those words and doesn't just spit out gibberish in the comm history window.

Whenever I use the command "turn right heading 250, join the locilizor for R26R" the aircraft will ALMOST fly the heading I command - but only within 10 - 15 degrees or so. Next time you do an intercept this way, ask the aircraft to say heading or use the PTL and measure the heading using the bearing tool. I suspect they're not actually flying the exact heading you commanded.

The only combination of commands I've had 100% success with is not even in the official documentation. "Delta 604, turn right heading 250, cleared ILS approach R26R, maintain 4000". The aircraft will fly exactly that heading, and maintain exactly that altitude with zero deviations. Not the real world way, but it works beautifully.

And yes, always intercept below the glide path. We had a pilot recently intercept a "false glidepath" and follow that down. Indications are the same, but the angle is 9 degrees instead of 3 so a wildly steep descent was needed. Not fun in IMC. Ideally also you would vector to a location that will provide the aircraft some level flight time on the loc before intercepting the glidepath. This definely doesn't always happen in real life, but usually seems to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ttjager Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Dec 2017 at 6:26pm
"Next time you do an intercept this way, ask the aircraft to say heading or use the PTL and measure the heading using the bearing tool. I suspect they're not actually flying the exact heading you commanded."

Andrew, 

I just did really quick experiment . . . 

SWA1634 was on a 16 NM right base to R26R.  I gave him a descent 4000, as that is glideslope intercept at BAMBU.  I gave him 230 heading to intercept the localizer.



I used the PTL and measured the heading using the bearing tool.  It seemed to work pretty good.  This is what I got:



I really don't think I'm doing anything magic.  I'll try to upload a video in the couple days.  I want to address some localizer intercept angles and glideslope intercept altitudes for those completely new to the concept.

Good luck Brother!

TJ


Edited by ttjager - 04 Dec 2017 at 6:27pm
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andrewatc View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andrewatc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 2017 at 11:26am
Well I went back and tried it again many different times. A few planes actually flew it correctly, but then I got a pesky CRJ doing it wrong.
My 250 heading as originally assigned would have put him nicely at BAMBU at 4000 ft with a 25 degree intercept angle (final app course is 275)
 
I have tried so many different things and I just can't nail down what exactly makes them do this. Sometimes the intercept is fine, but other times they change their heading like in the image below. I really can't tell why. It seems to work fine for every other user.
 
Oh well, more trial and error.
 
 


Edited by andrewatc - 05 Dec 2017 at 11:27am
SW3, SW4 Captain in CYYC
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