ATCPro Forums Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > ATC Pro Forums > ATC Pro Official Support
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - handoff errors at KMCI
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

handoff errors at KMCI

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
bolero3232 View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2023
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bolero3232 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: handoff errors at KMCI
    Posted: 30 Mar 2023 at 1:25pm
This is to hopefully continue the conversation with Global, when and myself, regarding KMCI handoff errors.

So, where was I? lol
From when's videos I'm gathering that the errors have mostly to do with altitudes. Am I right? Also, it seems they only occur when there are other flights nearby, otherwise I don't get hit.
Back to Top
Globalthinker View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2023
Status: Offline
Points: 12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Globalthinker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2023 at 4:08pm
Hi Bolero,

Smile Yes, there is an internal server error on the previous posts so let's continue here. I hope that wheniwasinspace can post his replies as well as they were useful. 

My take on KMCI is that indeed the airspace is visible East, West, North, South directly on the screen but then you have to factor in altitudes. There is a useful map that is available. I will try to find it. I believe that maybe "wheniwasinspace" once published this map as a topic. It is helpful to have this map in front of you if you direct planes onto different altitudes. Let me look for the map.

Here is what I do more now with continues success.

When times are not busy (early morning, late at night, the weekend at times):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I control all areas all at once meaning East and West approach, east and west final, east departures, west departure and sometimes even in combination with N, S and W satellites.
The beauty of it: no more hand-off issues, penalties and the instructor yelling at you. You should at least try to play this for a while in low traffic times. It is relaxing and pleasant. 
When you have > 10-15 planes you probably will not be able to handle it any longer as too many things will happen all at once. But it is worth a try.

With busier traffic:
---------------------

I make  a choice between arrival and departing aircrafts.

When I control departing planes. I select East and West departure and I make sure I stay away from A, B, F and P areas. I control planes away from F and P when they are at low altitude. I direct them higher when they are only in my E or W airspace and when I exit them I make sure that I stay either under the A and B sector or fly over it. Here is when the map can be helpful or you can read from the screen. It is important to follow the maps of the correct flow. If planes are North flow, select the North maps on your screen. The selection is done in the Display Control Bar (DCB) on top of the screen. 

When I control arriving aircrafts, I always manage A and B (arrivals) and F and P (finals) together. There are simply to many issues if you keep A/B separate from F and P. But you can alway try.
Here again, altitude is the most important thing. You get dinged if you are not between 110-150 at first , the closer to the airport you need to between 70-120 and even further between 50-120. That is all assuming North flow and A sector on the West. Another flow (south, east flow) or the B sector will change the altitude picture. So again the map is key. 

KMCI is a great area to exercise. There is just so many combinations and opportunities that you have to tailor make the area per your own choosing. Then exercise a lot without getting frustrated by the inspector.

I hope this helps. I will now try to find the map gain.

Happy controlling Wink 
Back to Top
Globalthinker View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2023
Status: Offline
Points: 12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Globalthinker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2023 at 4:19pm
Here are the excellent maps from "wheniwasinspace" that I found really helpful operating Kansas City (KMCI). Thanks again wheniwasinspace for this helpful resource;

Back to Top
wheniwasinspace View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2019
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 103
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wheniwasinspace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2023 at 2:31am
Originally posted by bolero3232 bolero3232 wrote:

From when's videos I'm gathering that the errors have mostly to do with altitudes. Am I right? Also, it seems they only occur when there are other flights nearby, otherwise I don't get hit.

The airspace violations is most likely because you are invading A,B,S,N,J,P,F airspace which is inside yours. You need to treat SFC-150 with more than one grain of salt. You own SFC-150 only if none of the other sectors overlap. You need to coordinate with those controllers or keep out of their airspace.

As for flights nearby I'm guessing you are talking about busting beacause of CA. You are never allowed to have planes closer to each other than 3NM horizontally or 1000ft vertically.
When planes leaves satelite airports with a traffic pattern it is very common that the plane is not separated from the other planes in the pattern yet.
The phrase "Radar contact" is you signing a contract that you will care for the planes safty  from obstacles and other aircraft. If the plane is below the MVA or to close to aircraft in the pattern, then you immidiatley fail your job.
So for planes requesting an IFR clearence, assign them an altitude above the MVA, below aircraft arriving/departing your main airport. Then wait until the plane is separated from the ground and other aircraft before saying "radar contact".
Back to Top
bolero3232 View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2023
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bolero3232 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2023 at 12:06pm
SFC-150 seems to work fine as long as all the planes involved are mine. The other sectors don't seem to apply unless there are aircraft assigned to these other sectors. I get your meaning though.

Some other questions I have:
1) If I am controlling KMCI as E, how do I initiate a handoff to W? Also, sometimes a plane is requesting a handoff to W, but it never starts to blink. How do I hand it off?

2) Best practice: I see you can handoff a plane to Center more or less at any time. What is the actual recommended procedure? Can you hand it off too early?

3) How do you know which airspace map to use? I'm kinda thinking you use the map that corresponds to the assigned sector.

4) WTF is SLEW? lol

when, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your presence here. There really isn't anywhere else to look for help. 


Edited by bolero3232 - 31 Mar 2023 at 12:07pm
Back to Top
wheniwasinspace View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2019
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 103
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wheniwasinspace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2023 at 6:04am
Originally posted by bolero3232 bolero3232 wrote:

1) If I am controlling KMCI as E, how do I initiate a handoff to W?
Press the Handoff button(F8). Type "W" or "1W", click the plane. If you succeded you should se the text "1W" in the middle of the lower line of the radar tag.
Once W accepts the handoff(plane flashes and eventually turn green and the letter changes from E to W) you tell him to switch to Ws frequency.

Originally posted by bolero3232 bolero3232 wrote:

Also, sometimes a plane is requesting a handoff to W, but it never starts to blink. How do I hand it off?
I'm not sure if I understand the question. Planes never request handoffs, you do. Do you mean you follow the above but W never accepts?
In that case there might be alot of diffrent reasons. 
1. Sometimes the request for a handoff doesn't "stick". Verify that the radar tag is still showing "1W" in the middle of the bottom line of the radar tag. Otherwise try again.
2. If you try to initiate handoffs very early or when the plane isn't facing the border at a good angle the AI get's confused at doesn't understand that the plane will soon cross into W territory and the controller of W will never accept.
The immediate fix is to click the plane again(the you un-ask the handoff. The "1W" text should dissappear from the lower line. Then re-ask. The AI often accepts the second try.
In the long run, figure out when this is happening to you and adjust your handoffs so they work on the first attemp :)
3. You aren't handing it to the right controller but the AI hasn't figure out that you are wrong so neighter dings you nor accepts the handoff.

Originally posted by bolero3232 bolero3232 wrote:

2) Best practice: I see you can handoff a plane to Center more or less at any time. What is the actual recommended procedure?

The optimal thing would be if the pilot where talking to you when in your airspace and to the other controller when in his airspace. But... 
If we consider KMCI for example. You are running E and have a plane flying towards ANX and you will be handing over to sector 42.
If this is a little Cessna with a requested altitude of 9000ft you want to start that handoff early enough that the pilot can be talking to C42 once he's crossed the sector border. I tend to initiate these handoffs 60-90 seconds before the plane reaches the sector boundary, that way C42 will have some time to accept, I will have time to give the pilot the new frequency, and the pilot will have time to switch frequency and start a conversation with C42.

If we have the same scenario as above, but this time it's a B737 that has a requested altitude of FL310 or something like that, that you had permission to climb through As airspace using a pointout it is very likely that the plane will hit the roof of your airspace way before hitting the lateral boundary. 
In this case you want to hand the plane over to the sector above you, rather than the sector to the east of you.
In KMCI this happens to be the same Sector. C42 owns the southeast part of KMCI above 150.
Pilots absolutley love climbing to their requested altitude in one single climb.
So if the situation allows... hand the plane over in such a time that C42 can issue "climb and maintain FL310" before the pilot has to stop the climb at 15000.
In KMCI I would initiate the handoff when the plane is crossing 12000.

Originally posted by bolero3232 bolero3232 wrote:

Can you hand it off too early?
If you hand it over... and later realize that you need to change it's course or altitude to avoid a conflict... Then you have really messed up.
There are often "Standing agreements" between sectors as to what you are allowed to do when you have accepted a handoff, and the pilot is on your frequency but still in the other guys airspace...I'ts not uncommon that you are allowed to do 30 degree turn for example.
If you handover a plane that is just barely seperated and the new guy gives it a turn that messes up the separation... that's on YOU. The plane is in your sector and the other controller followed procedures.

The game also often accepts early handoffs... Then the AI suddenly think that.. hey.... this plane is not mine... And will initiate a handoff back to you...So if you handoff to early you might have to handoff twice :D


Originally posted by bolero3232 bolero3232 wrote:

3) How do you know which airspace map to use? I'm kinda thinking you use the map that corresponds to the assigned sector.
IRL you would probably work the same Tracon for decades. You would know every inch of that sector and not use any maps.

In the game.. Well you work KMCI today, KMIA tomorrow, you come back to the game after a month of playing other stuff. You may very well need maps! 
At KMIA if I'm running north departures I usually use the map of my own airspace.
At KMCI as E I don't need a map to remember SFC-150... It's much more important to understand the surroundings. Which parts do I need to avoid? A,P,N,S are the ones I would switch between.
So with a south flow "507,515,523,525" are useful.
nort flow ""506,514,522,524".
Showing them all at once clutters the screen so I try to remember roughly where the boundaries are so I can apply a single map for a couple of seconds when I need to be remembered about the altitudes.

I'd say it basically comes down to that you should try to understand the entire Tracon and the neighbouring sectors. Just starring at your sector and what altitudes you own won't create a good flow.
As an example to what i'm talking about, pretend it's south flow at KMCI, you are J and you have a departure from STJ leaving via ANX.
Put up the map "527". If you only consider your own airspace and sent the plane direct to ANX (roughly heading 135) you could climb the guy to 3000ft right? 
So where does that plane end up now? Let's pretend the same scenario but you are running finals as F. Close the other map and display 519 instead.
J suddenly hands a departing aircraft to you crossing the path of your descending arrivals. Your airspace is rather tight but now you need to start vector around planes on their final approach.
How much do you like your college at J? :D
Anyway.. you manage to turn the STJ departure a bit and you own SFC-60 so you just blindly climb him to 60.. cause... hey... he's in your airspace and you can do whatever you want right?
So same scenario... You are running the east finals P... Change to map 515. Your college at F just handed you a poop sandwhich at 6000 ft right infront of your arrivals. But you can't turn him... cause he is stuck between your arrivals and Fs arrivals. You will have to make one of your arrivals go around to fit a departure from a satelite airport... You are not amused :D

So lastly. Close the other maps and open 523 and 527 (J and N) 
Both S and J handles satelite airports and tend to have slow climbing aircraft that you want to keep below the airliners from the main airport.
Can you find a reasonable path from STJ to ANX that doesn't invade the arrival streams?
One way would be for J to send the plane at a heading of about 120 and at 3000ft.
This way the plane will be below the KMCI arrivals and will only need to talk to two controllers rather than 4. The controllers will be calm and no what to do cause they are not dealing with a near colission in the arrival stream.

Another way could be to start 090 from STJ for a quicker climb, and then give the plane direct ANX. Keep in mind though that Ns airspace above GPH is SFC-050...
Sure YOU are allowed to climb the craft to 6000ft.... But the the next controller needs to descend it back to 5000 or make a handover to someone else. A or E depending on where that aircraft ends up.

So even running a small sector, you need the review all maps to see the "big picture".

Originally posted by bolero3232 bolero3232 wrote:

4) WTF is SLEW? lol
Slew in this case is "Click". The ATCPro manual seems to use the same language as it's real world counterpart. ATC tends to use trackballs rather than mice. Guessing they select their aircraft on screen by some kind of slewing motion with it. 

Originally posted by bolero3232 bolero3232 wrote:

when, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your presence here. There really isn't anywhere else to look for help. 
Very kind words, thank you :)
Back to Top
bolero3232 View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2023
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bolero3232 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2023 at 9:08am
2) I think I've been handing off more or less as you've described. Basically, climbing him to 150, unless I see a conflict ahead, then I would hand him off as soon as I saw him clear. I was wondering if this was wrong, in regards to real life ATC.

So, regarding maps, 3) I have a plane coming out of the NE (BQS) bound for KMCI 01R. When he gets near MKC which maps would apply, 506 A North or 514 P North? His controller?

BTW, what does "A North" mean exactly? A=controller North=flow?


Edited by bolero3232 - 03 Apr 2023 at 9:17am
Back to Top
wheniwasinspace View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2019
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 103
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wheniwasinspace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 2023 at 10:51am
Originally posted by bolero3232 bolero3232 wrote:

I was wondering if this was wrong, in regards to real life ATC.
Can't answer that one lol. I make it up as I go. I'm just a nerdy train driver. My real world knowledge of ATC is extremly limited.

Originally posted by bolero3232 bolero3232 wrote:

So, regarding maps, 3) I have a plane coming out of the NE (BQS) bound for KMCI 01R. When he gets near MKC which maps would apply, 506 A North or 514 P North? His controller?
All "North" maps is intresting in some way during north flow. 
If you are running A you could show "A North" and remember in your head where the boundary to P is so that you can hand the aircraft over to P at a good place.

If you are running E you need to keep your planes out of A and P. You could display both A and P maps or just A and remember in your head that P is below A and you don't want to go there :)

Use any maps necessary to understand where you should guide your plains.

Originally posted by bolero3232 bolero3232 wrote:

BTW, what does "A North" mean exactly? A=controller North=flow?
Exactly! 
Back to Top
bolero3232 View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Jan 2023
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bolero3232 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2023 at 2:28pm
Pretty much how I'm playing it, I'm on the right track to becoming a real ATC PRO! KMCI isn't all that hard after all. I'd like to hear from GlobalTracker again.

A technical issue I've had recently, the game crashes after a few hours of play. Is this normal and/or a known issue?
Back to Top
wheniwasinspace View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 05 Jan 2019
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 103
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wheniwasinspace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2023 at 7:38am
Originally posted by bolero3232 bolero3232 wrote:

A technical issue I've had recently, the game crashes after a few hours of play. Is this normal and/or a known issue?

I have this in some of the Tracons... Atlanta rarely lasts more than 2 hours before crashing, while ABQ never ever crashes.

I've spent alot of time trying to figure out exactly what happens and if there is a way to avoid it. So far I haven't been able to to avoid it completly.

It does seem like in Atlanta if I have received a point out and the aircraft leaves the border of the entire sim chances of a crash increase.
So I try to exit out of my point outs once I don't need them anymore..
But that doesn't fix all crashes. 


I've also dug around in windows logging feature and noticed that one of the crashes occur in one of the Microsoft Foundation Classes DLLs.
This crash seems to happen in many apps from the same era and is most likely a windows bug that ATCpro would need to catch and handle, but that's not going to happen so unless anyone is hackish enough to reverse engineer MFC and apply a fix and give us a working DLL this is going to continue to be an issue.

One bug, and I don't remember if this is connected to the MFC one or not seems to have to do with the voices of the AI pilots. A WAV-file is created and then played when they talk.
It seems that if the creation of the WAV file takes longer than expected, the game will try to play the file before it exists.. And it crashes the game out to the desktop.
Think the only solution here is to just hope the computer is fast enough. Don't run to much other software and hope for the best :D


I believe these issues where known but since it is unlikely we will ever see a new version of this software it is what it is.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.499 seconds.