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ATCpro Build 21

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Bizzy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bizzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 2019 at 10:19am
Well Tom, I can't speak for the other members of this forum (or customers of ATCPro), but I do appreciate your update. I am not unlike the others, anxiously awaiting the update. However, I apparently am not as anxious as some others.

My frustration (and of late, concern) over the release of the update, is "NO NEWS". I, not unlike many others here, are forgiving when it comes to personal matters that have effected the completion of this update. It is the lack of news and/or information that has myself and many others, concerned.

Thank you for this update.....at least I know that the developer is still in business, and that there is still hope for a better functioning ATCPro with the v1.21 update. As for Tom (the programmer), I do hope he is successful with his treatment, ATCPro aside. I can't imagine enduring life with back problems like his!

Best regards and Happy New Year to all,

Rick


Edited by Bizzy - 07 Jan 2019 at 10:21am
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brodie4598 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote brodie4598 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 10:31am
Perhaps open-source may be the way to go? Or find a developer to buy the project? Or release the beta to tide us over? If this went open source and the community was to resolve these issues I'd gladly donate even though I already paid once for the software. I've said before that a 99% functioning version would be worth paying again. 

Perhaps the last release update in September was in good faith but it should now be apparent to Tom that his own health and his family is (and should be) more important than this software. That's completely understandable and if I were in his shoes I would also prioritize my family - however - I would gracefully step back and let my creation live and excel instead of burn out and disappear. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote crbascott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 2019 at 10:43am
Tom,
I decided to keep coming back to the forum after you announced Build #21 had been completed a year ago. And that was after participating in the initial post-release beta and sticking around for two years hoping the numerous bugs would be addressed. I was always hopeful to be able to play a bug-free ATCPro. Instead we're playing the "wait a bit longer" game AGAIN! This is the straw that broke the camel's back - I'll be coming back no longer. 

I want to stress that I do have sympathy for those experiencing the health scares and woes. 

But all along I felt Flag Mountain bit off more than they could chew with ATCPro. From Day 1 - poor marketing resulting in disappointing sales, poor support, obvious over-reliance on single individuals, poor internal design, and lack of pro-activity and growth. 

I'll check back in another year or two to see if things have changed. Take care!  


Edited by crbascott - 08 Jan 2019 at 10:45am
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slappy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2019 at 8:55pm
yikes guys...

Time for some of you to step back and take a breather.  Yes, it is disappointing..on many levels..between a small team, a complicated program, and health/family issues is anyone really surprised?  I don't know their business and it really ins't my business anyway.

Flag Mountain made a beautiful sim that had such potential, but for the reasons above, it seems like the story is just about over.

My only wish is they opened up the software for developers to add to it.  This program should be 80% third party developers and 20% core development/modifications.  There could be dozens of addon TRACONs available, all producing sales and expanding the product.  Instead the closed door approach was used.

They are in control of their business and I respect that even though I don't agree with it.  Who knows, maybe there's more to the story.

Good luck Tom and Tom, I wish y'all the best.  I still play ATCpro once and a while just to get the itch out of my system!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote bill3810 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2019 at 1:55am
Well I guess for me I'll just continue to use the software as is.

It's already paid for, so I may as well use it

Complaining about release dates for the next version won't bring it here any sooner or improve my experience with the current version.

We know what the problem areas of the software are and we've been informed they will be addressed but the timeline is a bit slow right now due to unforeseen circumstances.

In the meantime I will simply use the software as is, which i find very enjoyable with some small adjustments and techniques which eliminate some of the nuances and bugs we have at the moment.

I'll be here, ready and waiting when the new release comes out when ever that may be.

AND if there are major additions i'll be happy to fork over more money!


Edited by bill3810 - 11 Jan 2019 at 2:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wheniwasinspace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2019 at 6:40am
I bought this game very recently and haven't had time to get frustrated. For me the ABQ sector alone is worth $60.
I havent' really become good enough to handle the other sectors so can't speak for them, but the ABQ bugs are few and not very bad.

Speach recognition was a pain in the ass the first week before I figured out what I was doing wrong. Now it's just awesome.

I agree with Bill, complaining won't give us a build 21 any faster. I think we should spend our time doing something constructive for the community.
There are a few things we can do.

1. Get more players onboard. The game is really amazing. I wish I had heard of it the day it came out on the market. I would have if I knew it existed. I bet there are plenty of ATC nerds out there who still has no clue. Let's change that!
I also believe this to be a really funny voice controlled puzzle game. One doesn't have to be an aviation nerd to like it.
I intend to record some Youtube-videos with explanations of how to play the game that any kind of nerd would understand. Not just the aviation nerds with previous experience of ATC communications.
Like the ones Mark H did for Tracon!2012.


2. Making tips&tricks+bug handling videos. From what I have seen so far, some bugs are pretty easily avoided once you got them figured out. It's the figuring out part that takes time. This is faster if everyone helps out to spread knowledge.


If anyone else would like to contribute to such a youtube-channel or already has a channel and want some help making more movies, let's get it done together!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sath_99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2019 at 11:23am
Originally posted by wheniwasinspace wheniwasinspace wrote:

Speach recognition was a pain in the ass the first week before I figured out what I was doing wrong. Now it's just awesome.

What were you doing wrong ? And what was the solution ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stooge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2019 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by brodie4598 brodie4598 wrote:

Perhaps open-source may be the way to go? Or find a developer to buy the project? Or release the beta to tide us over? If this went open source and the community was to resolve these issues I'd gladly donate even though I already paid once for the software. I've said before that a 99% functioning version would be worth paying again. 

Perhaps the last release update in September was in good faith but it should now be apparent to Tom that his own health and his family is (and should be) more important than this software. That's completely understandable and if I were in his shoes I would also prioritize my family - however - I would gracefully step back and let my creation live and excel instead of burn out and disappear. 



tl;dr -- Speech engine is owned by a 3rd party so open source is not likely. We need a community liaison, customer service rep that can keep us up to date and keep us engaged. Mod support should be looked into.

Long Version:

You can do a search, as I know it is somewhere on the forums, but open source is unlikely a path that can be explored. The speech recognition engine is a proprietary 3rd party code and the licensing of which was (from how I read it) a bit complicated and accounts of a substantial part of the costs. 

What may help is to add mod support. If users can create modifications then it would help keep customers engaged and find new ways to enjoy the game. What types of mods you could / would allow could vary, and I won't go into a list of them here. You should seek community input before you add mod support on what aspects they think would make for good mods.

I know I've shown my frustrations, but make no mistake I got my money's worth of entertainment from it. I do not in anyway feel I was hoodwinked, tricked, cheated, etc. It's like paying to see a movie; did I enjoy it? If yes, that doesn't mean if a sequel is not made it somehow destroys the initial movie ... it's not a 100% direct comparison, but it's close.

What might help is an "official" community ... ambassador / liason? Someone who would have a direct back line (via email, or some time of regular frequent meeting / conference) with Tom and/or Tom. Someone who can speak in an official capacity. This person does not necessarily need to be paid, I've seen volunteers do this type of thing on other games. No, I'm not volunteering nor am I applying for the job. I'm stretched about as thin as things stand already. Just more of a suggestion. A simple official point of contact can be enough to keep a community calm and engaged. 

Here is what I like to use as an example. Have you ever been in a traffic jam? What's the worst part of being in a traffic jam? It's not the fact that you are not moving, but more that you don't know why. Many times once you see an accident way up ahead, or construction, or whatever, one tends to relax a bit because at least they know why they aren't really getting anywhere. 

Yes, we know why right now things are moving slowly, but a regular update by a community liaison would go a long way. Otherwise when we go weeks without any contact at all, we start to fear that they threw in the towel. If nothing else it would give a solid feeling that they care. Any game I've owned has a much enhanced sense of community when the developers are actively involved in forums because it shows they care. I'm not saying Tom / Tom do not care, but this is about impression. No matter what the true reality may be of a situation, it's the impression that really matters to people on a psychological level. 



Edited by Stooge - 14 Jan 2019 at 2:00pm
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Stooge View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stooge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 2019 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by Tom@FlagMountain Tom@FlagMountain wrote:

I am really at a loss as to how to respond to the posts in this thread.  You guys are frustrated, but STAND IN LINE.  As I said in previous posts, Other Tom's wife was diagnosed with breast cancer, and that took 9 months to work through.  Prognosis is now good, but the distraction is obvious, or should be.  At the moment, Tom has damaged a couple of the vertebrae in his back, and is facing surgery.  His mobility is impaired, and he cannot sit at a desk chair for very long.  Last report I had from him was that they were going to try some new nerve treatment.  No results yet.  Would I like to have had R21 out six months ago - Damn Straight.  Can I do anything about it - nope.  Doesn't make sense for me to try to pick up Other Tom's portion of the code, but if I had known then what I know now, would have started that process.  At this point, just gotta wait a bit longer.  Not the answer you (or I) want, but it's the only one I have at the moment. 

Regards

Tom


First, thanks for the update.
Second, I hope Tom makes a full recovery and that life will stop kicking him down. I'm glad his wife's prognosis is good. 
Third, I do not know his condition, but others I know who have back injuries have found that standing desks are a good alternative. Even if he can't use those now, once he gets better it might be good to help maintain good healthy back / spine issues. 
Fourth, tell him that no matter what happens he helped write a kick ass game. Even if it never goes any further, kudos on what was done already.

NOTE: I know this is long; read it if you wish. Just trying to help

Now, a suggestion (and perhaps you are already doing this, but wanted to share anyway). I've been in the IT business for two decades. I've down system administration, software developemnt, and application administration. I've worked more projects (in some role, including a few as the project manager) then I can even remember so I'm not talking without some experience.

Yes, I know that right now you can have a thousand suggestions for how to do software lifecycle development, but you don't have a developer who can actively engage for reasons outside of your control, this is for when Tom is back in good health. 

1.) Frequent, small, patches updates are both easier from the standpoint of development, debugging, and customers are usually happier than waiting for long updates that pack a lot into one package

2.) Define each update before you start with what the goals are. Do not, under any circumstances, allow "scope creep" to happen. Scope creep is what we call it when a project begins to add more and more things to the list of goals after the project starts. Remember, treat each update as a separate project. 

3.)SMART goals apply for a project the same as they do for a person. For those who don't know SMART is an acryonym to help recall that a goal should be (S)pecific, (M)easurable, (A)pplicable, (R)ealistic, (T)ime bound. (i.e -- Fix x number of specific listed bugs, in x amount of days. If a bug cannot be fixed because it turns out to be too difficult; push it to another project rather than miss your dates)

4. Smaller objectives on a frequent basis is better. If you can do even a single bug fix / patch a week, it may not sound like much, but they pile up and add a lot of improvement and keep your community engaged. Patches can be weekly, feature additions can be much less frequent. 

5.)Try to focus on features or bug fixes for each release and not combine the two. 

6.) Communicate internally and externally. The project manager should be engaged and receive frequent updates so they can either adjust the release date, or remove goals (don't add goals though!) 

I know that's a lot, and it's actually just the very tip of an iceberg, but those are my main list of suggestions I would have. Software development is a very deep area of methods and implementations. I won't get into the details of those, or even the names of all of them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wheniwasinspace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2019 at 5:44am
Originally posted by Sath_99 Sath_99 wrote:

What were you doing wrong ? And what was the solution ?

Short version: Lowered the volume of the microphone and started speaking faster and faster.
The best volume of the mic for teamspeak or skype calls are quite diffrent from the optimal volume for this game. Human ears and SR works very diffrently.

Made a short clip of how to change the setting if you are not tech savy.

regards,
Alexander
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