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ATC Phraseology

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MarkHargrove View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09 Jan 2016 at 7:57pm
While I think the sim's authors did a good job (from what I can tell so far) of implementing the controller's 7110 phraseology, the PILOT phraseology is often amateurish.

  • The "Radar contact" call by ATC (which is required upon initial contact) does not have to be acknowledged and almost never is.

  • Professional pilots do not say "<callsign> is with you climbing out of 6000 for 9000". Sure you hear that expression from time to time from pilots trying to sound like professionals, but a real professional would simply say "<callsign>, 6000 climbing 9000". This is also true for descents:  "<callsign>, flight level 190 descending one-five thousand".
...and even the 7110 phraseology isn't adhered to perfectly.  During a hand-off, the receiving controller is required to issue an altimeter setting. Since this is a available in the game, why not model the hand-off correctly?

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mlovetto View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlovetto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2016 at 9:40pm
Professional pilots say "climbing out of 6000 for 9000" all the time. I hear it every day.
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MarkHargrove View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkHargrove Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2016 at 10:02pm
I hear it on LiveATC all the time as well -- but that doesn't make it correct phraseology.
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mlovetto View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mlovetto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2016 at 10:07pm
Good thing pilots aren't required to use correct phraseology and just ATC. Ive never been yelled at by ATC for using non-standard phraseology. Especially when I say "Climbing thru 24.0 for 280". They know what I'm talking about and it's not a big deal.
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MarkHargrove View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkHargrove Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 2016 at 10:22pm
Really all I'm saying is:  sims like this have the opportunity to do things exactly right and model perfect phraseology.  

Rather than propagating "folksy" phrases like "xxx is with you" (which, btw, I have heard a controller rip a pilot for (ORD approach, about 5 years ago -- it was pretty funny)) -- the sim's authors can have the pilots modeling proper, concise phrasing that doesn't waste time.

MOST of the time being excessively verbose doesn't matter, but I can think of lots of examples in crowded airspace (ORD, ATL, LAX) where the extra 2-3 seconds it takes a pilot to say the long version of a phrase must feel like a lifetime to the controller.  I've been on flights into Chicago more than once where it got so busy the approach controller told everybody to not even acknowledge his transmissions -- to just do what he said.  Now THAT's pretty much the definition of crazy-busy!

-M.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RDATC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2016 at 2:10am
Mark the 7110.65 is a living document. It evolves constantly, incidents drive change. And for the record , the receiving controller is not always required to issue the altimeter. If I'm working East at TYS and ship a guy to West for the left downwind 5L he certainly isn't going to reissue the TYS altimeter.  < ="application/x-dap-" id="DAPPlugin" style="visibility: collapse">
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"Think Twice Before Hesitating"
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scr View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2016 at 10:32am
Each pilot departing an airport is required to listen to the current ATIS and advise tower that he/she has it.  Arriving aircraft are expected to do the same and advise the controller on initial contact that the ATIS was obtained.  Altimeter setting is part of that information and the controller is not required to issue altimeter setting again unless it has changed.  If a pilot does not report having the current ATIS, the controller will ask the pilot, "Do you have information Alpha" for example.  If the pilot responds "negative" altimeter setting will be issued, along with other necessary info on the current ATIS.

Pilot departure phraseology does vary quite a bit and often the pilot does not state the aircraft altitude on climb from the departure runway.  Whatever is said, the altitude must be stated by the pilot so that the departure controller can utilize the mode C readout on the data tag to provide vertical separation with other aircraft.  If the data tag altitude readout differs by more than 300 feet from what the pilot reports, then the altitude readout is unusable. 

As part of the ATCpro support team, and a retired career FAA approach controller, I look forward to participating on this forum and working to make this product the most realistic and enjoyable simulation on the market.
ATCpro Project Team
Career Air Traffic Controller
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DrRSG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrRSG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2016 at 12:10pm
For somebody in my position, who has no knowledge or experience of ATC and wishes to learn, your participation and commitment are appreciated.
Best wishes 
Richard
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MarkHargrove View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkHargrove Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2016 at 1:57pm
>> And for the record , the receiving controller is not always required to issue the altimeter. If I'm working East at TYS and ship a guy to West for the left downwind 5L he certainly isn't going to reissue the TYS altimeter.

On the other hand, if you're an approach controller accepting a hand-off from center is there any circumstance under which you won't give the pilot the altimeter reading at initial contact?

-M.


Edited by MarkHargrove - 10 Jan 2016 at 1:59pm
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MarkHargrove View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkHargrove Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2016 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by MarkHargrove MarkHargrove wrote:

>> And for the record , the receiving controller is not always required to issue the altimeter. If I'm working East at TYS and ship a guy to West for the left downwind 5L he certainly isn't going to reissue the TYS altimeter.

On the other hand, if you're an approach controller accepting a hand-off from center is there any circumstance under which you won't give the pilot the altimeter reading at initial contact?

-M.

Ahh, I bet I can answer a little bit of this myself -- if the pilot says '<call sign>, level 12000, with information Yankee'  (and Yankee is current) then you don't need to give the altimeter. 


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